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OK, I’ve been quiet for a long time and when we start poking at systems and styles it gets ugly, but I really can’t let this one slide by.
On this page https://www.kravmaga.com/programs.asp there is a picture of a man doing a butt stroke with a shot gun. Now, I’m not going to comment on the yellow hand wraps- if you train for self defense you should only use hand wraps if you wear them in your every day life.
I will assume he’s left handed. But how was he originally holding the weapon? Even if you have only shot skeet and have NO tactical training what so ever, you know how to hold the weapon.
If this is a MILITARY SYSTEM, maybe they could have taken the time to take a look at the picture and proof it a bit. But, hey, we make mistakes- maybe the model was nervous? Sometimes we use models or whoever is standing around in the shot…but it’s not. The man in the photograph appears to be Darren Levine, the head muckity-muck of Krav Maga in the U.S.
I’m confused. I thought an ultra military self defense program would know how to hold a long gun. But I digress, if I’m off base here, please feel free to chime in.
This only motivates me more to get the weapon retention DVD shot.
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Well, you’re right, those are LOVELY hand wraps. My read on that photo is that the little guy (without the ‘Master meenie look’) was recently in possesion of the shot gun. Somehow, without closing the distance to get away from the muzzle blast, the big feller wrestled the gun away and is now clobberin’ the guy with no hand wraps. It also occured to me that Mr. Bigs motivation could have been to sample the strawberry licorice shotgun. I think I’ll get some of those hand wraps.
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WELL- I am new to the forum but not so much combatives and CERTAINLY not Krav Maga. I did take it for the basic 7 months
and know just about all one needs to about the system..Yeah, I do agree with Damian about Darren’s demonstration and about the handwraps (yes, they are nice) and oh yeah…K.M. DOES address street-combat-life-or-death situations as though they are training for a UFC match sometimes. All in all; NOT something I wanted to stick with
for a long period for real self-defense.BUT…BUT! I still say that Krav Maga DOES have some good stuff to it. I’d be lying if I said that I thought otherwise. I mean that what they teach is still above and beyond what say–the Wing Chun school one block from the K.M. center I went to in L.A. is teaching as far as real self-defense.
I mean hey, a simple stepping in with a simple shot to the throat is a better answer for a small woman to have then say, a joint-lock when she is being manhan dled by a bigger, stronger male. In fact, a few things K.M. teaches for situations like that are pretty effective. I just would NOT want to ONLY rely on that if I had to defend my life. And don’t forget now, there are quite a FEW stories I could tell you about my training with these folks and they negative things they had to say about techniques I KNEW to be VERY EFFECTIVE (My God..ONE INSTRUCTOR NAY SAYED THE CHIN -JAB!! Kid you not!!!!!). I guess I still go with what my Granpa always said “a busted clock is right 2 times a day…”
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Welcome to the forum!!!
My Kung fu is the best…hey, I’m guilty of it too sometimes. We all invest a lot of blood, sweat, tears time and of course$$$$$. The problem exists because they are still a martial art. The depend on techniques NOT tactics.
There are a few things I look at when evaluating a system regarding self defense. Simplicity of technique, aggressive movement, do they pay attention to distance and position and do they consider the 8 cardinal rules of self defense:
1. It must work on an assailant that is much larger and stronger than you.
2. It must work against both armed and unarmed assailants at the same time.
3. It must work against multiple and single assailants at the same time.
4. It must work against determined and capable assailants.
5. It must work when you are distracted, older or injured and appear to be a good target of opportunity.
6. It can’t have specific defense for each individual situation.
7. It must work in every possible environment (the same method must work in snow, sand, parking lot, woods, jungle, your living room, etc.).
8. It must become instinctive and convulsive as quickly as possible.Under these guidelines ANY system can work. A karateka who develops a good reverse punch and adopts the correct attitude will be incredibly effective.
Where all these guys (and gals) lose me is the specific defense BS. If he attacks this way, you do defense one, another way you do defense 2.
It operates under a false set of principles that you only have in the training hall.It’s like training with snakes.
Let’s say we’re snake handlers. We start with rubber snakes. No problem, we just walk over and pick it up. Next we use garter snakes, a little trickier, but no problem.
One day, you’re in the woods and you come across a rattle snake. Is it really the same as the garter snake?
This is where most systems lose it. They start pontificating on what could happen instead of just keeping it simple.
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Hello!
I’ve been attending Krav Maga classes for six months or so. I do not claim to be an expert. I know we train hard, with a non-stop never surrender attitude. Why is Darrine wearing hand-wraps? The only reason I can think of is because the instructors are concerned about safety and we do a lot of punching, hammerfists, elbows, knees, kicks, etc. I personally never wear hand-wraps during Krav training. Most of the students also do not either. The center where I go also offers boxing classes. This class is usually after the Krav class. The students for this class wrap their hands. Most of the techniques I’ve learned in Krav I consider useful. However one technique (Level -1) technique I consider pretty useless is defending against a front choke. Maybe I’m wrong but I seriously doubt anyone is ever going to choke me from the front as an initial move. Maybe an abusive husband to his wife or girlfriend. I just do not see this realistcally happening to me in real life. There are a couple of Krav books that you can pick up at Amazon. One is a Beginner’s Krav (which is the better book). The preface explains what Krav is about and how students are trained. Also they have photo slides of the different self-defense techniques. My own opinion is to study what works. I haven’t purchased any modules yet but reading the Module outlines and watching the free videos the Self Defense modules look like they are worth owning. Paul Vunak does some pretty useful attacks also. Check out this video – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMhVLPwH47k
I think this is a cool marketing video. I think it would be cool if the Self Defense Company could put something together like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OBkmSvglUcKrav Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbnhUCvlGUU -
Thanks Dave for your input. Yes, it’s important to train w/o protection. You’re right on target. You must condition your body, hands to operate in that manner.
the problem that exists is lies in specific defensive tactics. I can only comment on personal experience. From what I have seen from students and people who practice Krav Maga is that is is defense specific. Separate, specific defenses for separate and specific situations. Different and separate defenses cause confusion under stress. The greatest results we have seen are when simple, high percentage technique that require minimum time to learn are applied to a wide variety of situation. This will allow you to be able to adapt instantly to any situation.
The other issue is the use of sporting techniques. Low round house kicks to the the legs are meant to wear down an opponent over the course of a few rounds in a sporting competition. They also leave you off balance and open to be taken to the ground.
The following is SPECULATION from my years of teaching. Hand wraps also limit the complaints students have when they strike with a bare hands. It hurts. When you strike an elbow, skull or any of the many bony and hard parts of the body there will be some pain. This is why in the beginning and for MOST people, the edge of hand (heel pf hand, hammer fist) and the heel of hand (tiger claw and chin jab) work best. They can be conditioned extremely fast and have the least risk of injury.
BTW, COOL video. We do have some stuff (check out angelajudochop channel on youtube)
Now I will say that videos for youtube are sometimes made to get hits NOT for actual applications. Punching the head w/out conditioning causes damage to you. Its not that you can’t punch someone in the head and walk away uninjured (I can attest to that personally) but as a system, trained in the shortest amount of time possible, they should be avoided until propper conditioning has been performed (module 6 SDTS). The twisty wrist techniques are actually superfluous and too complicated for combat applications, just ask anyone who has been in those situations.
At the end of the day if you’re happy and confident with your training, that’s excellent. If it trains you to MAKE A DECISION and react aggressively, FANTASTIC. Finally if you enjoy the people you are with, all the better.
Thanks for posting and welcome aboard.
Damian -
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Speaking from my perspective, Krav Maga has the same issues as other martial arts:
Specific Defenses for Specific Attacks
Sport Techniques applied to Self Defense
Technique, not tactics drivenI still see a lot of interesting weapons “disarms” and defenses that look like they fell out of the Steve Segal Aikido handbook.
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Krav Maga being developed by a Jewish kid survivng the streets of Czechoslovakia fighting against hardcore nazi youths, I think would produce some results that are effective. I’ve seen vids on the tube and it does look somewhat flashy. It’s used by the IDF so there must be some use to it, I hear Kommando Krav Maga is the advanced shit, which from what I hear is even deadlier, but no worries, I’d still use the SDTS as my primary defense/offense strategy!
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Im confused, if krav maga is supposed to be the primary hand to hand/melee weapon/gun defence for the [color=blue:14tiayoz]israle special forces[/color:14tiayoz], wouldn’t you expect it to be the best system? I mean, when you are going up aginst anti-semetistic jihadis, i would want a system that would give the greastest chance of surviving, not get me stabbed in the throat by an Al-Quida psycho while i hopelessly try to disarm him because im out of ammo and he wants my scalp
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First of all, Krav maga is a martial art that leverages the reputation of the Israeli Commando for national pride and profits.
Second, if you think ANY commando is using hand to hand techniques as his primary MO in the field, you’ve seen too many movies.
All SF guys keep sharp in theater by wrestling, boxing and messing around with anything they can get their hands on, but when it comes to hand to hand it’s do what ever it takes as fast as possible (sound familiar?).
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Damian I just saw a clip of that RBSD on the tube and quite frankly, I wasn’t impressed. This dude (the victim) grabbed the knife hand of his opponent and wrestled him. Yes, I was like WTF. IDK about you Damian but in my personal OPINION, the best way to neutralize a threat with a weapon is to go for the throat. Point a knife at me, then see how well you can wield it when I send a web of hand blow straight to your larynx!
Please tell me these chickenhawks aren’t serious.
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Defendu was a book that still had a lot of superfluous classic jujutsu type of techniques. Keep in mind when the book was written, jujutsu was like MMA of the day so WEF put a lot of that stuff in there.
What has happened is that there was no one really teaching any Defendu for years. A lot of people who claim to teach it today have turned it into a martial art based on their traditional martial arts training. A kung fu guy is going to make it look like king fu, a karate guy will make it look like karate.
Even though Carl did research, there was no one who could be traced to actually teaching it so it was used as a basis for what we do now.
Also, when Get Tough was released later it almost all of the complicated holds except the wrist twist and the thumb hold. Both of which are complicated and low percentage. I had heard that even Sykes criticized GET TOUGH saying that it was not brutal enough and had too much non-lethal, ineffective methods. But that’s only a rumor now since all of those guys are dead.
Commercial Krav Maga was doomed as soon as they built it on the martial arts model. Long term training demands complicated and a lot of techniques. In reality, we can take anyone and make them an animal in 12 months and as little as 1 to 3 months if they have good physical abilities.
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I mean a few months of training with the SDTS. Hell, it’s not like on the last day you’re magically an ass kicker, but once you have the core techniques and you hit hard, you’re well on your way. You really don’t need that much training.
The first 4 modules give you the foundation. This covers the vast majority of situations, the rest is learning how to apply what you already know to weapons attacks, offensive weapons tactics, body and physical conditioning, taking a man to the ground violently and of course the nasty bits in modules 11 and 12.
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