Sport vs Street---tired old debate, but.. – The Self Defense Company

Sport vs Street—tired old debate, but..

Home Forums Self Defense Current Events and Culture Sport vs Street—tired old debate, but..

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    • #10183

      What do you thin k it is that MAKES some sport-fighter guys say sport-fighting is best for “the street” as some put it?

      I think they have a somewhat valid argument when they talk about training “alive” ie they are guys who are really “fighting” against resistance. But then they lose it when weapons come into play.

      Not biting and eye-gpuging, weapons.

    • #10991

      Its because they are mistaking appales for oranges. Sport figting is apples and real fighting is oranges. There both fruit but are two entirely different things and they think there the same thing.

      There are common denominators but at the end of the day the two things are not related.

      Just to name a few.

      1) Sport rules. real Fight no rules.
      2) Sport No weapons Real fight weapons.
      3) Sport No friends or back up Real fighting friends /back up
      4) Sport ya get a trophy. Real fight ya get to live!
      5) Sport ya get a rematch. Real fight. The guy ya KOed last week shoots ur Mom or you on the crapper.
      6) Sports referee to handle the action. Reality there is a cop to get ur infor because ya just became a statitstic or ya getting a free ride to the morgue.

      Ill go into more later..I need some sleep…Long ass day.

    • #10992

      Thank you One .

      5) Sport ya get a rematch. Real fight. The guy ya KOed last week shoots ur Mom or you on the crapper.

      LOL- take it you saw Unforgiven, huh?

      “It’s a heluva a thing killin a man-ya take away all he’s got, n’ all he’s ever gonna have”

    • #10994

      In this argument, we focus on the external factors which are all true. But the one point we miss is the internal factor…fear which produces:
      Urgency and Adrenaline.

      Anyone who has stepped in the cage, int the ring or on the mat will tell you that the adrenaline rush is incredible, but after the first 30 sec to 1:30 sec the rush is gone and you’re working on strategy, your game plan or…losing.

      Training live with training partners in the studio is helpful, it’s good conditioning and develops your spirit. It can also teach you about distance and position. But it also creates some problems. You get mentally lazy. You can coast when you want to. Even if you create an environment that steps up the action (we have a series of drills that put external factors into play that will do that) at the end of the day you KNOW your partner isn’t trying to kill you.

      Sports teach you to wait and find an opening, set the pace and work with in the time limit.

      A Fight requires you end it by what ever means necessary and as fast as possible.


      Both are cars with specific purposes. Both will technically perform in each other’s arena, but will get crushed. There is no way a NASCAR will hang with a Drag Car on the street and there is no way a dragster can run on the NASCAR circuit.

      Same goes for sports and combat. Against a good street fighter, a combat sport or MMA guy will lose. If you reverse the situation and put that street fighter in the ring, he’ll get spanked like a newborn baby. They both have a “puncher’s chance” but the their respective arenas, they have the odds on advantage over the other one.

      The problem exists that there is no real TEST other than combat, for real SD skills. This poses a huge problem. SD methods fall victim to the old game of “Telephone”. The farther away you get from the source, the more convoluted the message. Techniques taught today are either misapplied or lost their relevance. Instructors continue to extrapolate, and imagine what will happen without reflecting it against the real world.

      The result is something that is neither effective or useful. Instead they put their own SPIN on it and off they go. You must stay true to the nature of things. Technology and environment aside, hand to hand is as technically evolved as mush as it can. The only changes are in training methods and instruction. NEW styles don’t exists, I’m sorry. There’s only what has a high percentage of success an a low percentage of success.

    • #10996

      Carl Cestari (R.I.P.) said it better:

      [quote:1ubsrsbg]It’s Not a Matter of Who is Right…..

      by Carl Cestari

      “People here may belittle sports arts….”

      Almost EVERY “combatives” man of any note CAME from a combative sports background. Boxing, wrestling, judo. WEF and O’Neill (SIXTH DAN-Kodokan Judo-personal student of Uchijima Sensei, a NEWAZA LEGEND) are PRIME examples of this.

      I’ll SAY it AGAIN. What a 20 or 25 year old young buck and what a middle aged businessman seek to get out of their training are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

      As far as the “effectiveness” of ANY technique, well a FIGHT is a FIGHT. I know a guy who got his head split open from a blow with a lead pipe. Know what? HE STILL beat the shit out of the TWO assholes. SO WHAT?

      You FIGHT like hell until either YOU’RE DONE or HE’S DONE.

      AND why is it so hard to “get” that “close combat” is far MORE than “ax hands” and “tiger’s claws”. It’s ANYTHING THAT WORKS. Cracking someones “egg” with a blackjack is close combat. “Kneecapping” some asshole with a bat or ax-handle is close combat. Working some street punk over with “knucks” or “sap” gloves is close combat. Using a shiv, push dagger, or a friggin’ ball point pen is close combat. A steaming hot cup of coffee right in the mug is CLOSE COMBAT.

      I “know” guys who have DECADES of training in sporting combatives. YEARS of competitive experience and TONS of knowledge. KNOW WHAT? Screw with them and the LAST thing they are gonna think about is ANY “unarmed” mano a mano response.

      As far as “building” attributes? OF COURSE! Athletics in GENERAL build many fine and useful attributes. BUT….I know of MANY instances were individulas with NO athletic background AT ALL have overcome TREMENDOUS odds. I have also witnessed “champions” who were hell on wheels in the ring, and on the mat FOLD like the proverbial “cheap suit” when the rubber met the road for real. SO WHAT?

      But here’s the REAL issue at the bottom of this ongoing debate.

      Someone who has spent years training in “karate” has invested time, money, and maybe blood sweat and tears in his pursuit. He WANTS to believe that what he has invested so much in will WORK. Same for Kung Fu. Same for Aikido. Same for BJJ. Same for Boxing. Same for Wrestling. Same for Judo. Same for Savate. Same for FMA. SAME FOR ANY ENDEAVOR.

      But that ONLY makes sense in the PARAMETERS of that SPECIFIC endeavor. Competitive Judoka expect to compete within the well defined “rules” of THAT endeavor. They DO NOT expect to enter a shiai and be knifed in the guts by the other competitor. A boxer enters the ring and expects to fight under the agreed rules of the boxing commission. He DOES NOT expect to be shot dead from across the ring by his opponent.

      Let’s say you’re a top level collegiate wrestler. By circumstances beyond your control(real life does that) you have to face several desperate well armed foes. You’re given a “choice”. Attempt to use your wrestling skills at which you are VERY GOOD, or grab a 12gauge riot shotgun.

      Now let’s say you’re at a relatives wedding. The booze is flowing pretty good and Uncle Vinny gets a little out of control. Same choice as above. Use your wrestling skills to restrain old Uncle Vinny or grab the riot gun?

      I DON’T GIVE A RAT’S ASS about “style”, “system”, or any of that CRAP. WHY? Because ALL I AM INTERESTED IN is what will SAVE MY ASS in the real world, when it’s for all the marbles. I have spent YEARS in Judo, I get attacked for REAL and I grab a brick and pound the skel into mush. DAMN! I didn’t get to use my Judo! OR….I get grabbed from behind and manage to toss the skel to the ground with O-Goshi, THEN I finish him with the brick. SO WHAT?

      If a “tiger’s claw” works GREAT! If “hadaka jime” works GREAT! If a kick to the balls works GREAT! If a takedown works GREAT! If running the bastards down with my car works GREAT!

      Anyone out there “getting” this! IT AIN’T ABOUT what is or isn’t “BETTER” or more “EFFECTIVE”. ANYTHING THAT SAVES YOUR ASS IS GOOD!

      It’s NOT a matter of who is “right”, only of who is “left”![/quote:1ubsrsbg]


    • #10997

      I LOVE that article Robin. Always have. But, I believe Carl did borrow that “it’s not who is right but who’s left” adage from Ed Parker. Not that it matters, truth is truth.

      Actually, just as sport fighters talk a lot of sh** about RBSD, People often don’t give ol’ Ed enough credit for contributing as lragely to self-defense as he did.

    • #10998

      You may want to post the ORIGINAL UNEDITED version of this article which was a post on the old Self Defense Forum

      Are Martial Sports Better Than Self Defense?

    • #11001

      LOL It’s ok Damian-my ego is even BIGGER …just kiddin.

      Naw, I see why Damian put that full article up like that. You know, when people see Damian was involved in sport-competition fightin, a lot of the MMA hardcores might just shut the fu** up. It’s good that people see it. See what a lot of sport-fighting types like to zero in on is the fact that a lot of RBSD teachers have not stepped up and put their money where their mouth is. Now, I’ll grant ya that they think a match-fight equates how they’d do in a real combat fight–but a lot of RBSD guy’s basically back-down from challenges with some pretty GREAT rationolizations for doing so. “Oh, I’d get sued.” “I’d go to jail”…blah blah…nah sounds like if one of these big ol studs came to Damians school and wanted to rumble they’d be in for a surprise.

      Judo competitions are imo more hardcore than boxing mathces in the psychological sense. And wrestlers? To me they are more FIGHTER than boxers. Wrestlings more primal.

    • #11003

      Your check is in the mail.

      I always liked Judo for RBSD because it taught you a few things:

      Train with a sens of urgency.
      Stay on your feet
      Work fast on the ground
      One false step and it over.

    • #11010

      I have done all three. Boxed, Wrestling and Judo. And its really all about the same IMO. There a good base for RBSD. I have a preference for Boxing and Judo and like Boxing the most. But there is something final about a KO. And it really really sucks to have to tap. I hate to tap. I always had to convince myself to tap. Was kinda like the angel and the devil on my shoulders. would go something like this. ” Tap its just a game getting injured for nothing is stupid. Devil…” Dont be a pussy!…Never surrender! Dont quit.! ya could still win! …” but this isnt a real fight!…tap tap…/sigh…lol

    • #11011

      But it’s like letting people know that Clark Kent is in fact…. Sup????!!!!!! Ooops! :D

      BTW Damian, do you happen to have a link to the ORIGINAL articles? As you see, the link I have is no longer trustable ’cause they have edited them.

    • #11013

      Was on the selfdefenseforums. I don’t know who owns it, but it was posted in 2002-2003. All I have is the original word document.

      Here’s the post on Ezine: … t&id=21605

      I posted it in 2003.

      On Ezine you can find a lot of his original work.

    • #11014
    • #11015

      Just found another site with non-edited Carl Cestari articles:


      it contains more articles than the Ezine site.

    • #11017

      Well One, at least you’re not Peter Griffin. His Angel and Devil always seem to make his situation worse.

    • #11018
      JKDGuy wrote:
      Well One, at least you’re not Peter Griffin. His Angel and Devil always seem to make his situation worse.[/quote:35lypcvl]


    • #11019

      If you drill down a bit, sometimes you find something worth looking for.

    • #11020

      “WHAT TGHE DUECE???”

    • #11293

      UFC and MMA just flat out piss me off beyond reason. These douche’s think they can fight when all they do is play pattycake in the octagon. It really pisses me off and makes me feel like smashing a motherfucker with a chinjab or cradle smash

    • #11295

      “I always liked Judo for RBSD because it taught you a few things:

      Train with a sens of urgency.
      Stay on your feet
      Work fast on the ground
      One false step and it over.”

      I agree with this quote whole heartedly!

    • #11296

      LOL :D

    • #11311

      I was wondering, even though I’m not proficiently trained in the full courses of the SDTS could I still defeat an MMA fighter or a much larger opponent. I’ve seriously F@$ked up bob with axe hands, chinjabs, web of hand blows and good old fashioned hooks from Cestari’s dvds. I always hear of MMA guys saying how their shit is the real thing and legit and they laugh when I try to explain otherwise.

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