Baton Tactics

[James Goolsby]

[Damian Ross],

I’ve been working a lot on my baton technique (LOVE the Figure-Four Grip, by the way… already using that one at work). I was wondering if there were any modifications necessary when using a collapsible baton such as an ASP. A two-handed grip always feels a bit awkward to me because to “business” end is so much smaller in diameter than the grip. Does it really make any difference or is it just my own weirdness getting in the way?

Also, I was wondering how hard I could go on my BOB. I don’t want to damage it by beating the hell of him with a baton, but then again it looks like you’re not holding back too much on yours — especially with the axe handle. You think it’s okay to go full-force?

Thanks.

j

[Damian (Instructor)]

1. BEAT BOB!!!! He can take it. If you’re really worried about him, you can pad him with some cardboard and duct tape. You’re going to need to do that with the edged weps anyway.

I have a pretty heavy duty ASP that works great with the 2 handed grip. I admit it feels strange because the diameter is smaller and it may dig in to your hand too much, so you’re going to need to see how it feels in practice.

That’s one of my issues with the ASP – it limits a lot of your tactics to swinging strikes. It’s another weapon that guys like because it’s not a pain in the ass to carry and it sounds cool when you open it.

But keep in mind it still makes a great fist pack and yawara stick if you keep it closed.

[James Goolsby]

Cool… I figured it was just me. I’ll just keep training until I get comfortable with it. Still, sometimes I do long for the good old days of a “solid piece of hickory”.

Thanks for the info on ol’ BOBBY… poor bastard’s not going to know what hit him!

[Anonymous]

I do love this part of the training. The techniques are great and I learned a lot of them from my Dad who is a retired Police Officer, and my Grandfather taught him a lot of them, he was also a retired Police Officer. We also learned a lot of this while going through Riot Training with the GA DoD, so all fun stuff. Now I am on Disability for my eye injury, but the one good thing about it is I have lots of time for training, so just another area to work on, while I get other things together. Great stuff Damian.

I also like the old Police Batons, not too interested in the ASP and have used them, but what I love about this system is at this point I can pretty much pick up anything and use it if needed.

[Damian (Instructor)]

Thanks Dave – if it’s not broke, DON’T FIX IT.

Funny, the riot training developed by Rex Applegate in featured in Kill or Be Killed (I think that’s in the SDC Library) is still taught today because it works and to be honest, people don’t really think about riots except that it needs to be dealt with swiftly and effectively. Cops don’t daydream about liability when someone is hurling Molotov cocktails or rocks your way.

The ASP is accepted for 2 reasons.

First, it’s convenient. You can leave it attached to your belts, get in and out of the car without having to pick up that pesky baton and put it in your belt.

Second, it looks cool when you open it and sends a “warning” like racking a round in a shot gun or opening a switch blade.

The thing to remember with all this training is don’t depend on the weapon to solve your problems.

Most courses I have seen have tried to use the ASP against lethal force, or in every position.

This is a mistake.

There will be times when you need to ditch the weapon and use something else. For example, the guy grabs it. SDTS says let him have it because I’m going to start beating you to death with my hands or I’m dropping the weapon, striking you a lot until you cover up, then I’m dropping back and drawing my firearm.

I know that’s broad strokes – but you get the idea.

[Anonymous]

As I go through this and train then go to krav class i get the feeling that many are not happy because even in the weapons defense portion they are seeing what works and does not work. We have officers in our class and they are loving the baton techniques I am showing and they love how when they grab the weapon that i just keep coming in forget about it and just using aggressive strikes to do what I need too. I have suggested that they all sign up here, and also order the Guardian program, because in my mind that is the best they can get to help them go home at the end of their shift.

Some of our officers talk about the liability issue with using batons or asps, but while we were talking I said the most important thing is for them to get home to their wives and kids, and if someone is stupid enough or high enough to come after an officer, then they are one of the most dangerous threats I can think of, they agreed.

Thanks for all the great stuff boss..

[Damian (Instructor)]

Thank you Dave.

The bottom line is (and you nailed it) when they’re up against it – they are allowed to do whatever it takes to survive. They have the same rights (with the addition of no duty to retreat) as anyone else.

The problem is, some pencil pusher has infiltrated police training with liability.

I have trained a lot of cops and have a few close friends that are cops. who have NEVER had a use of force issue. We’re talking 4 departments 300 officers in one of the most populated and affluent areas in the US – Bergen County NJ. And most of these guys just knock the guy out as soon as he gets squirrely. No BS, just BANG – edge of hand or hand yoke and the guy’s out.

The only place they have trouble is illegal search.

Remember – even the officers who beat the crap out of Rodney King were acquitted and given their jobs back. So let’s just say you can do less than that.

[Anonymous]

I worked in Bergen County when I lived up North. I fully understand the area you are talking about. I have been working with one of our Deputies down here with the SDTS, and the baton tactics, and he is one of their training officers and likes what he sees. We both go to the same Krav Maga class, so he was asking what I knew since he knows I have been training under the SDTS. So we stayed after class and worked on the baton tactics and other things that I thought would help him. Well he loved it. Our Sheriff has a policy that a fight needs to be quick and over in less then 15 seconds if at all possible, saying that if the citizen starts to show too many signs of aggression then you take him or her out quickly. Let’s face it no reason to end up in the hospital or dead because someone feels the need to jump. He loved the hand yoke, edge of hand and the Chin Jab, and the baton tactics. I also hear his officers like what he has to show, since they are only required to have a once a year 4 hour Defensive tactics course, which in my opinion is not enough

Let’s face it you have Good Officers that follow the laws, don’t have a power trip and do their jobs well, and we need to support them in any way we can, and also remember that as human beings they can have a bad day like the rest of us. We also have bad Officers who need to be set down, investigated and dealt with. I know many great officers out there putting it on the line so we can have safer communities

Thanks for all the good stuff you all put out, and my advice if you study this system and know some officers show them what you know and give out the links to this site and other programs run by the SDC.

[Author]

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