- This topic has 16 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
Hello Damian,
I currently going through module 1 and practicing the drills, but after spending some time reading the forums, I get the feeling that the consensus for studying traditional martial arts for self defense are a complete waste of time. I’ve been taking Kung Fu San Soo for about the last 6 months (yes, I’m a white belt and practically know nothing) and I was hoping to supplement that training with your self defense modules. My question essentially is this; Does training in traditional martial arts actually hinder your progress in learning self defense?
One thing I have discovered about studying San Soo is that in addition to the typical strikes, there is quite a bit of grappling involved and when I finally get to module 10 with the throws and take downs, I will have some live partners to drill with.
-
sragone wrote:
“Hello Damian,
I currently going through module 1 and practicing the drills, but after spending some time reading the forums, I get the feeling that the consensus for studying traditional martial arts for self defense are a complete waste of time. I’ve been taking Kung Fu San Soo for about the last 6 months (yes, I’m a white belt and practically know nothing) and I was hoping to supplement that training with your self defense modules. My question essentially is this; Does training in traditional martial arts actually hinder your progress in learning self defense?
One thing I have discovered about studying San Soo is that in addition to the typical strikes, there is quite a bit of grappling involved and when I finally get to module 10 with the throws and take downs, I will have some live partners to drill with.”
I kickboxed my first 11 years in the arts. In 1983 I took up Oikiru Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu and never looked back. Oikiru Ryu as my sensei called it was the Beikoku Ryu of Juko-Kai but due to some falling out between that organization and his sensei they had to change the name. I hold a sandan in that system and a shodan in what they called a closed combat system called OIkiru Ryu Tai Jutsu. It was more of a combat sport of the MMA variety before that became the “in” art.
With that all being said, I was a legion member of the IXXCP. I joined to get Carls DVD’s. When I started training with them I found that much of the Aiki system was very good if “tweeked”. All of the blows and kicks were there. Even the stomp step!! We didn’t slide our feet as much as Aikido folks do and we hit people alot before doing any kind of throw or takedown.
My advice to you is to continue if you want to. Just remember that you will fight like you train. If you do alot of sparring then you will fight that way when it’s for all the marbles. It’s better to put on Bogu and go all out for 15 seconds than to fight 2-5 minute matches. You can’t kill your training partners!! I’m sure San Soo does alot of sparring. In the Marine Corps we used rubber hoses for knives and went all out against pugil sticks or we fought over the knife. I have always kept my training close to what I learned in the Corps. As you progress in San Soo you will find things you like but keep this in mind: Can you do it when your pulse is 150 and your vision or hearing isn’t working right? Is it a movement that uses large muscle groups?
I believe that much of the physiological effects of deadly stress can be eased by serious training such as Zen.(You don’t have to become Buddist.) And combat breathing. In for 4, hold for 4, out for 4, hold for 4.
I still train with Aiki-Jujutsu, just not all of it. Don’t be afraid to go for it.
Carl was a big one in his videos to encourage people to study other ways. -
It is my opnion and from my exstensive experience. That it really comes down to what you are looking to accomplish…ultimately. Your number one priority for training?
Do you want to train for competition, money trophies and women? Well anything from wrestling to MMA is what ya want to do.
Do you want to train for exercise and self improvement? any of the Do’s will work for this from Karate-Do to Aikido.
Do you need to be able to survive on the streets? A 1 am home invader? or do ya have a action career like myself? Well then ya need to train and focus on a reputable RBSD system and SDCTS is one of the few.
It really is that easy and complicated
Personally I enjoy the Do’s and the sport stuff but I am at a point in my life where I cant be bothered with it. Self Defense is and has always been my number 1 priority.Could I do my RBSD stuff as well as well as some olmpic TKD or Judo? Yep I sure could but lets say I do them 3 hours a week…Is the minimum amount of time ya would want to spend. Well thats thre hours I could have been training on something that could ACTUALLY save my life.
The Do ‘s have some good tecniques of course. Edge of Hand and Chin Jab being two of them for example. The problem with the average Dojo is that there applications and tactics pretty much suck and are unrealistic and from what I can tell from my own experience that alot there stuff has non REALLY ever been tested. Its pretty obvious least to me.
As far as it being tested on acient battle fields that is a bunch of crap. Did they train it? sure just like a modern soldier. How much was it actually applied on the field? I would say very little. Anyone who knows anything about close combat knows that your empty hands and other body weapons are THE LOWEST form of self defense. ya will want to use a weapon if at all possible. And the ancient warriors walked on the field with WEAPONS IN THERE HANDS. Usually a couple just like modern warriors. So how often it was used prolly not alot but some. Is where they was developed some..like ww2 combatives but over the time the SIFUs and Senseis anded a bunch of crap that was never tested and those teacher had never been in a real fight. So they taught crap!
Least this is what happened in my best guest. All I know is I have stood in many Dojos over the years and have seen ALOT of shit that will get ya hurt and I have had to bite my tongue to many times out of respect. So I dont think Ill darken there door again in hopes of Self Defense. maybe for trophies or women or to help my kids but never in the hopes of self defense.
-
Both excellent responses and are both correct:
Martial arts at its core is not for self defense. If you look at the foundation of all major martial arts, their purpose was for national pride and culture. Self defense is no the primary purpose. Training in self defense is about simple skills and tactics. Martial arts focuses on goals and community.
Mad Dog brings up two excellent points. First you train how you will react. Habits are just that and you will fall back on your training, good or bad. But he does offer a REALISTIC solution if you are embedded in martial arts training: simply apply the mindset of the SDTS to your training. Always seek to end the fight as quickly as possible. Unfortunately this is not easy to do. BTW, right on with the BOGU!!! No sparring, just bursts!
1% is right in that if you’re goal is self defense, don’t waste your time. I can’t agree more. Self defense is a skill, not a style. You don’t need a Black Belt, just what works. The first questions martial artists ask each other is “How long have you been training?” We used to ask the same question when we were kids. Longer = better. This is not true. If you spent decades training in the WRONG method, well, you’re far worse off than the person who spent weeks in the right one. The only thing you have going for you is YOUR WILL to dedicate years to your art.
Reality Based Self Defense practitioners fall into this trap. You will hear guys say the same stuff. How long did you do this, or how long did you do that. We have one simple rule, if it is instinctive and convulsive I don’t care if you spent 5 minutes or five years- the result is what matters.
I have coached and trained a fair amount of people, I can show the same thing to a group, some get it right away, some take a little more time.
If you’re looking for self defense, don’t look to martial arts. If you invested years in your art, you have no choice but to adapt your skill set.
It all depends on time and needs. Most adults just want self defense, and that’s what we give them.
Great posts.
-
Hello Damian I am a practioner of the Filipino and Indonesian martial arts. i also am a black sash in Wing Chun. I work out with my FMA instructor once a week and practice. But the majority of my training at home is edge of hand, hammer fist, chin jab, etc. on my B.O.B. When it comes down to it that is what you will use.
-
-
Not really a waste of time…I learned a few things from the 2 minute sparring rounds…
ONE. WHEN you get hit, you think “oh that hurts” and keep on thinking that and don’t react….
If you were about to hit, but get hit first you normally think ” oh that hurts ” and don’t hit back…because
you are not used to being hit….I learned from that, that no matter if I get hit, I will do the hit or kick I had in mind or some other,
BUT that person WILL BE HIT no matter what….and I won’t think about the pain, that won’t stop me…Plus you become familiar with injuries, like a collapsed diaphragm, unless you know what to do about that,
if it happens on the streets, you can get killed as you are vulnerable… -
Coming from a more tradional base (shaolin chusn fa Tsai family system) although had a compition element and a self-defense element there are good things to be learned provided the intsructor knows what he is doing ,there was iron palm training(like stds body conditioning) and yes we hit things ,makarwas,sheilds heavy bags what not ,and took pride in whipping karate guys in those days who thought kung fu guys can’t fight or hit hard ,they found out we hit harder with penetration shots ,the thing is tradional arts may have other bagage that to some may be a waste of time ,example forms are full of combat techniques however extracting from them takes time and is you are looking for quick skills maybe not the approach however I petsonalt don’t think everything is a waste such as telegraph and none telegraph which not that I am sticking up for point sparing it does teach you how to hit first ,most professional fighters don’t even understand telegraph and none telegraph except for maybe Roy Jones Jr back in the day ,most thugs have no idea so if you can hit first without detection and hit hard most of the time the fight is over our school were hard hitters and got disqualified many times at tournaments as well as dominated ,that being said all this requires time and if you got the time train in it ad long as you are meeting your goals ,combatves are for those with only one objective self defense and quick skill ,great for people with busy lives ,like Damion has said many time martial arts is a life style ,also don’t denounce traditional training as I am yet to see a combatives program that doesn’t borrow a technique from them ,when the ufc first came out a guy from my area named kieth hackney who studied a shaolin based sytem(white tiger kempo) dropped a sumo guy with a shock palm (i believe this is in the sdts syllabus) that is a tradional tech and even Royce Gracie who beat him took some shots from him and admitted he hit hard,so in essence comvstives owe everything to tradtion but mondern time somtime require fast track and that’s in my opinion is wear combatives come in ,again assess your goals and time to train .
-
Good points Omer.
The one thing I have come to terms with is sparring and it’s lack of value in the street.
I have a lot of sparring trophies and have done point fighting, Olympic TKD and kick boxing. I enjoyed it and thought that “getting hit” and learning how to take a shot was important.
It’s not.
In fact, allowing yourself to get hit is a problem.
Because now you need to depend on the other guy to give you an opening for attack. He has to miss (a lot) or not be able to hit with any real power. as you know in a real fight against a tough SOB (why bother training for anything else) he’s going to hit you with a barrage of attacks.
Because of adrenaline you’re either not going to feel the attack or you’re going to be knocked out.
In sparring, you can “take a good shot” and still fight through it if the guy backs off. This is when either the action stops (point fighting and Olympic TKD) or you get knocked out. Further more, sparring teaches you to score and not obliterate your opponent.
This fact completely changes the tempo of your training. There is no hit, hit, wait. There’s only HIT AND KEEP ATTACKING!
That’s why you train in massive bursts of power in the SDTS and try to keep pushing it longer and harder with shorter recovery time.
Systems that teach you to wait for an attack, use a “flinch mechanism” as their primary defense are setting you up to get killed. Personally all I need is one shot and it’s over – because one leads to two, two lead to four and four leads to the floor – you should feel the same way too.
-
-
-
here is the thing when capt fairburn developed these concepts and combatives he got from the martial arts that he trained in? Correct me if I am wrong. Especially from judo and jujutsu, So whether the martial arts is or isn’t I think it depends on the style you are learning. A lot of the arts are trying to be more street effective. Systems like kajukenbo are very street effective. Steve Segals aikido street effective, but the main theme is it takes a long time to learn and be proficient at it. just my opinion
thx
perry -
I don’t think studying anything is a waste of time. Provided you have a questioning, testing mindset.
The problem, increasingly, with people is that they want some formula handed to them on a plate. I call it intellectual welfare.
From what I understand, most of these martial arts originated as actual combat solutions, but specifically tailored to unique combat environments which may not fully encapsulate what you may face.
But, we have to focus on the big picture, which is killing another human being as efficiently as possible. With whatever means are available. Period. That’s it.
Not hurting them; killing them. It’s easier to back yourself down from killing than to amp yourself up from sport, or sparring, or whatever.
Additionally, basic principles apply, but I would expect thinking human beings to evaluate what ideas will work best for them.
I wouldn’t expect someone else to fight exactly like me. A Porsche and an F-150 have to obey the same principles to operate, but their capabilities are vastly different. Would you “train” them both identically?
Of course not. You must take in all ideas, and tailor them to your own unique, lovable self.
This also applies to shooting, where I find damn near all of the training to be bizarre and useless in an actual gunfight. I pretty much violate all their little rules. But, it works for me. Maybe the next guy likes something different, and it’s more comfortable for him.
Whatever will enable you to kill an evil predator, if need be, is all that matters.
I keep telling people to think big picture (killing) and then work backwards to specific techniques. Don’t learn a bunch of cute crap, and then lose your mind in a maze under pressure.
Killing efficiently. That’s the endgame. How you do it is up to you.
Think. For. Yourself.
Or, you’re probably going to be trained into a casket. Because, even if you’re actually being trained in a useful way, if you’re not CONSCIOUSLY evaluating it against reality, and making it your own, you’re not going to grasp the significance of it to its fullest extent.
Even with SDTS, some techniques you will naturally prefer over others. It’s not a formula; it’s the rough framing on your own individual house.
Seriously, maybe you just really dig small axes made from single pieces of steel, and wanna carry that around. And, if you know you’re going into a particularly dangerous environment, you can outfit yourself with weapons fitting that environment, that don’t appear to be weapons.
I love Home Depot. You talk about an arsenal. I’m pretty sure you don’t need a black belt to operate a chainsaw. Or the other 2.5 million weapons you could produce or procur from there. I’m a big fan of things that can be used as weapons, that aren’t specifically weapons.
I would never carry cute little hideaway knives, cuz if I got frisked that would be obvious. I consider my conscious creativity to be the real weapon.
Evil is similarly creative. It understands from the start that it has to operate black, and in the shadows, and beneath the radar. By its very nature, you won’t see it coming.
Unless…you first imagine it coming. It takes the imagination of a good detective to solve a clever crime. It takes the imagination of a clever crook to execute that crime.
Reality is first imagined. And, then manifested. Your real focus should be on imagining.
For example, my imagination has led me to realize that all these guys who teach about home defense and security are, at best, only helping you to maybe defend your home against basically your average home invader.
But, in my mind, I imagine the worst case scenario. Martial law. A chopper overhead. A drone over the chopper. Sniper coverage. A 4-8 man team coming in doors and windows. Armored personnel carriers. Body armor. Grenades. Gas. Heartbeat sensing technology. Etc, etc.
Now, if you can prep for that, then your average invader is going to enter a really freaky level of hell, if they make it in.
I think about trapping invaders. Decoy safes. Fall away floors. Collapsing staircases. All types of weird stuff that would be tough to find in a book or program.
Because I imagine weird ass stuff. Then I imagine the worst case scenario. Every countermeasure has failed. I’ve been captured or wounded. Guys are attaching electrical apparatus to various body parts. Whatever.
By doing this, I’m gaming it, and I’m also psychologically hardening myself. I don’t avoid worst case. I embrace it head on. Just thinking about it puts me in a real dangerous place. The place you want to be, if it comes to that.
I’ve always said that the most elegant, highest realization of security is prepared for the full compromise of itself. Because all preparations and systems can and will fail. There is no impregnable fortress. No fighter who can’t be beaten. No man who can’t be killed.
So, above all, imagine death. And embrace it. And turn fear itself into your “combat trigger.”
My point is just to maximize your individual consciousness as an awake, thinking human being. Your only weapon is your mind. Period. Everything happens in there.
Because you’re the good guy, you’re already operating from a position of moral strength and superiority. And, you can build upon that foundation to ensure that, if nothing else, you will be exponentially tougher and more vicious than any opponent. Because they won’t be attacking you if they’re not evil. No honorable person has any reason to assault me.
I may sound insane, but only because I understand that nature of evil, and I am prepared to laugh in its dark face, as its world collapses.
There is a devil. Now, just…imagine…that everything that is good and honorable and beautiful and decent – the devil wants to do the exact opposite. Consider the implications of that.
I guaran-frickin-tee you that there is no evil we could imagine that isn’t ALREADY being done right now, somewhere. If you can imagine it, it’s possible. Therefore, it’s a realistic option.
And, observing the world, it’s not going to get better before it gets far worse.
You should train for the most sadistic, evil, and well-trained, most technologically advanced opponent. If you’re mentally prepared for that…
The gang member in the alley will be a cockroach you merely step on and keep walking.
Imagine a team of special forces trained cartel members invading a quiet ranch, tying up the family members, and performing Satanic ritual executions in the most horrific manners. And, it can get even worse than that.
Do such people exist? Of course they do. Oh, and by the way – we have no southern border. The dangerous potential of the evil you may face is skyrocketing by the hour. Literally.
But then again, so is mine. And, so should yours. Keep THAT picture in your mind, whatever training you’re evaluating.
d
-
-
I found this article online what does the SDC community think? https://tkdfighter.wordpress.com/2015/06/22/the-many-myths-of-reality-based-self-defense-rbsd/
-
Hello I wouldn’t necessarily say studying martial arts is a waste of time I have nastalgic feelings and good memories from all of the dojos I went to through the years from the first time I started Karate 20 to 25 years ago to doing Aikido and returning to karate 8 to 10 years ago That being said and I don’t want to offend anyone traditional martial arts are like the old roach motels you check in but never check out they are by design to keep you comming back forever or at least a very long time until you get your blackbelt and are proclaimed an expert over the years I invested enough time in the martial arts to get a PHD if there was such a thing moneywise I surely spent enough to get a Bachelor’s Degree in any carreer field and what is the timeframe for being proficient in SDTS nothing by comparison what is the financial cost about 400 dollars you would exceed that before 6 months in any martial art school add 2500 dollars total plus any membership maintanance fees if you want to be an instructor essentially getting a franchise to the SDTS even if it isn’t a franchise in the true sense of the word what dojo would ever offer that I was looking at some of the schools I used to go to and in the aikido school it read on an instructors intro ten years experience 1’st DAN that is 10 years just to be a first degree blackbelt something is very wrong with this picture it would either suggest that the school is sending an overt or at least a subtile message that that particular individual isn’t particularly welcome there or that as I said earlier a dojo is a forever trap designed to keep you coming back forever I’m glad I found this system and wish I found it much sooner
-
This is a forum test message. Pleas disregard.
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
